Neil Orts Responds
Candace, the editor of Whosoever, has asked me to make a few responses to you letter to her. I'll do so paragraph by paragraph and try not to delete any part of your letter.
My friend,.....your website appears to be little more than a pathetic attempt at an alibi. At one point along the way, much to do is made about the misuse of the Sodom accounts given in the book of Genesis. Your understanding of the Word of God is chock full of subjective human reasoning that allows for a rationalization for your way of life. I regret to have to say that you're sorely deceived.
Don, I have no alibi, pathetic or otherwise. I am gay. I fought it for years, but now I rest in that identity. I believe God helped me achieve that rest. I'm cannot tell from the paragraph above if you agree that the Sodom story has been misused or not, but as for subjective human reasoning . . . which is more human to reason? That God recognizes only love between man and woman (the type of love that seems reasonable from a biological point of view) or that God recognizes love and faithfulness, whether it is between a man and a woman, a woman and a woman or a man and a man?
In other words, the things that God does often doesn't make "sense" in the human understanding of things. I often wonder at how some Christians say, "This doesn't make sense but it seems to be God's way," and then turn around and say, "This makes total sense, it must be God's way." I don't know if you are the type to say this. I'm just saying that in the realm of "subjective human reasoning," I bow to the acknowledgement that I have not the wisdom to always say I know the mind of God.
You're looking for the social acceptability that you don't rightfully deserve in our society. TRUE history reveals that this country was founded upon belief in the Word of God, faith in Christ, and personal freedom. You want a PERMISSIVE society,...not a free one. You're willing to upbraid any TRUE child of God who stands for an immutable, holy standard while you make excuses for your perverted way of life.
Other places in other contexts can better argue the validity of how or why this country was founded. I do not see it as relevent to the argument of whether God acceptes homosexual relationships.
I do not wish for a permissive society. I will say that I believe that this is a society, if not of permissiveness, then of irresponsibility. I just got off the phone from a conversation with a friend (a straight woman, if it matters) and we were sitting in amazement at different acquaintances and how they will not take responsibility for their own actions. What I wish people could learn to see is that actions have repercussions that will negatively affect them and others around them. There's something in our fallen nature that doesn't want to see this. I wish it were otherwise. But that's all side-chatter to the fact that I do not see issues of permissiveness or responsibility as being directly pertinent to whether or not God finds homosexual relationships irredeemable.
I will now address my "perverted way of life." I generally don't like sharing my personal life with people I don't really know, but I will say that I haven't so much as kissed a man in over 10 months. (I take that back, if you count the brotherly kiss I gave a friend at church in sympathy for the passing of his partner of 34 years due to cancer. It was truly a "kiss of peace." No tongue involved!) I hold a job as an administrator in a university. I think there is a perversion of sorts in large bureaucracies and there are days that I am truly sorry to take part in it, but I doubt that is what you're referring to. Other than that, however, I cannot see how you can possibly call my fairly mundane day to day life perverted. If my orientation is a perversion, then you have to explain to me how the rituals practiced by heterosexuals in the many bars in this town are not intrinsically condemning of heterosexuality. You see, there are places where perversions take place, but they are not limited to hetero or homosexuals. Yet when heterosexuals practice them, it does not condemn heterosexuality. So, the fact that homosexual perversions take place is not really pertinent to whether God honors and accepts faithful homosexual relationships.
You are at enmity with God,....your way of life is openly hostile torwards God while you sail under the banner of peace, love and happiness. Your religion, like other heretical, false religions, will lead you straight to eternal judgement. The sadness is that this is so needless. You don't have a heart for the Lord.....you're doing the bidding of the adversary. It's not God's will that you seek to do, but to have your own way.
There is so much in this paragraph . . .
As near as I can tell, I have led a life of pursuing God, of wanting to love God with my whole self. This journey included years of praying about my sexuality. I had many, many people along the way tell me that being gay was okay, but I refused to believe it. It was actually in prayer with God that I first caught a glimpse of God loving and accepting and calling me to accept my sexuality. I do not really sail under the banner of peace, love and happiness (in many ways, I had more of those superficially before I came out) but the banner of peace, love and happiness (well, tha last word seems sort of sappy to me, but I'll go with for now) is more like a stretcher that carries me.
The phrase "eternal judgment" interests me. Forgive me if I slip into a discussion on semantics, but if I understand judgment, it is a one time event somewhere at the end of time, and does not go on forever. Salvation or damnation does, but not the judgment itself. Sorry if it appears I'm making fun or simply playing with semantics, but I'm a writer and certain phrases will spark my imagination. I feel certain there is a story in your phrase. If there is one and it gets published, I'll have to give you credit somewhere in the foreword of the book.
Back to the topic at hand, I do not know how to vindicate myself in your eyes. You've already condemned me on practically no information. Truly, what do you know about my heart and my desire for God's will in my life? What do you know about my desire for my own way?
With the same amount of information, I can say of you, "you do not have a heart for God but a heart for your own self-righteous feelings of superiority. You are an adversary to the Good News of Jesus about forgiveness and redemption and the end to sin. Like all false cults, you set up walls that keep people out and demonize them for being outside the walls."
Doesn't exactly open one up for discussion, does it?
All I ask is that you listen to the stories of gay Christians before telling us we don't exist. I'll try to listen to your stories of why you believe as you do. It's okay to disagree and it may even help us grow into the Kingdom of God. But let us not start out by condemning each other's hearts without taking the time to get to learn about one another.
My friend,..take heed,....queers, homosexuals, faggots, effeminate,,...choose your own title,..will go straight into eternal judgement. One of your first clues that your way of life is incongruent with nature as God created it is obvious. Can you not see it? It's IMPOSSIBLE for you to procreate the human race!! God, during the process of creation, set certain natural laws into effect,...it exists on virtually every level of creation. Species were to replenish their numbers by normal procreation requiring BOTH male and female.
This falls, to me, under "human reasoning." It is what we see and it makes sense and so it must be the only way. Yet, I know most heterosexual couples don't have sex only to procreate. There is a fecundity in the sexual act itself, a fertility in a loving relationship that creates more than just more people. This is of the Spirit, not of the flesh.
Often, the unsaved enjoy looking to the animal kingdom to "learn about themselves",..the idea here is that we find something of ourselves in their behaviours and instincts. Well, here is a question for you,........have you ever seen 2 male lions having anal intercourse on the fields in Africa? How about 2 dogs having anal intercourse on the side of a road somewhere in rural America? If you have, I would like for you to advise me of when and where such an extraordinary event took place. Furthermore, if you did witness such an event, did it produce progeny?...cubs, kittens, puppies, etc. I seriously doubt it. How do you respond to this challenge?
Have you, in turn, seen two dogs (regardless of gender) remain faithfully monogamous with each other? Despite some research that suggests that homosexuality doesn occur in species other than humans (and I don't want to get into that because I can neither prove or disprove that myself) I do not think the animal kingdom has many if any models for any sexual relationships between humans.
Furthermore, in all other arguments about the human creature being separate from the rest of the animal kingdom, the differences are shown as to why we are made in God's Image. (Language, abstract thought, memory, what have you.) Suddenly, however, when it comes to this one topic (sexuality) we are to conform with animals or else we're not human. I will not play on that un-even field.
Additionally, how do you rationalize away the clear doctrinal teachings about the perversity of your way of life? How clear does the Bible need to be before you'll kneel before the Lord of heaven and earth and repent of this disgusting perversion?
Quite a bit clearer, actually.
I'm not the One before Whom you'll be accountable,...
Although you've spent a long letter acting as though you are . . .
you're without hope in this world or the one to come, my friend.
And so you tell me the hope I have in Jesus is pointless and without efficacy?
God is clear concerning your way of life,. ....He is AGAINST it!!! As long as you persist in this perversion, your heart is unrepentant and you remain in your sins.
God has been clear in my life. God seems really unconcerned with my sexuality. The perversions in my heart that God has been working on most is my tendency to judge others without pity, my tendency to accuse others in such a way that makes me look better, any number of things that pretty much boil down to simple, evil pride. It was, in fact, the prayer experience I alluded to above wherein God told me I was proud and unable to accept my own sexuality. It is very humbling to have to accept that which I had previously written and spoken against.
What could be plainer? Deny the clear biblical instruction about your perversions, and you're either a liar or a fool!!...probably both!!!....at the very least, you're unsaved.
Liar or fool? I cannot deny either charge. I have been both and will likely be both again. My sexuality has little to do with it.
Unsaved? How can you tell me that when just lines earlier you said that wasn't your call?
Gay Christian? Impossible!! You're one or the other,....you're gay, or you're a Christian!! Is there a such thing as a Christian Child Molestor? How about a Christian Murderer? What about a Christian Bank Robber? Can you not see the insanity and stupidity in your chosen position on these issues?
What I see is a very simplistic view of the world. As a matter of fact, yes there are such things as Christian Child Molesters, murderers, and bank robbers. Christians have been known to do all these sins and more. Their sexuality had little to do with any of those acts. Please do not confuse the topics.
You AREN'T a Christian,....!!!! Actually repent of your sins, and come to Jesus Christ, and you'll begin to discover what a true Christian really is!! Until you decide to accept Christ and become saved, you couldn't possibly know what a true Christian is!! You need to be clear on these points.
That Christ has apparently chosen me is going to be of little consequence to you, I can see. I cannot tell exactly from type on a screen, but the above is taking on the appearance of angry ranting, forgive me for saying so. I have to ask you, do you or do you not have authority to judge one's heart and mind and decide who is a Christian? You have said one and acted as if it's the other.
God DOES love you, but DOESN'T accept you according to your own concept of who He is, or your own concept about the Christian faith. The choice is yours,...repent of your sins, or bear the consequences for having rejected Christ, the truth of the Word, and His holy standards. Choose!!!
Does God accept YOU according to YOUR OWN concept of who He is or your own concept of the Christian faith? Read what you just wrote above and see if you cannot hear them in regard to your own faith. We are probably both wrong about certain aspects of our faith. Until we can acknowledge that with some humility instead of proclaiming that we individually have the whole truth of God, we will never be able to communicate. Simply shouting at me that I'm condemned does not make it so, but it does cut off conversation. Your choice is whether you really want a conversation or if you simply want to shout at people because they (we) have different views from you.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
I have tried to give some of each to you. I ask the same of you.